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Coffee Talk #7: PS3 vs. Xbox 360 — The Race to #2


Posted on October 20th, by raymond padilla in Coffee Talk, Console Wars, PS3, Today's Specials, Videogames, Xbox 360. 182 comments

Welcome to Coffee Talk! Let’s start off the day by discussing whatever is on your (nerd chic) mind. Every morning I’ll kick off a discussion and I’m counting on you to participate in it. If you’re not feelin’ my topic, feel free to start a chat with your fellow readers and see where it takes you. Whether you’re talking about videogames, Joe Girardi’s interesting bullpen management, the sexy Motorola Droid for Verizon, or what games you’ll be buying this week, Coffee Talk is the place to do it.

By now, most of you will have had time to think about the September 2009 NPD Group console sales figures. Sony did very well for itself, selling loads of systems thanks to the PS3 price cut and the introduction of the PlayStation 3 Slim. While the Nintendo Wii will end up being the sales winner this console generation (barring some catastrophe like Romulans attacking Earth to steal every Wii on the planet), some feel that second place is up for grabs.

PS3 vs Xbox 360 Coffee Talk #7: PS3 vs. Xbox 360    The Race to #2

Xbots will argue that the 360 has way too big a lead in North America. The company will continue to sell its exclusives and sell more third-party games thanks to a larger installed base. Improvements to Xbox Live will cement the console’s position of having the best online console-gaming experience.

Members of the Sony Defense Force will point out that this is a marathon, not a sprint. This console generation is far from over and Sony has superior first-party games lined up for 2010. With the console’s price cut, the PS3′s capabilities — Blu-ray playback, built-in Wifi, etc. — clearly make it a better value than the 360. With better games and better hardware that’s now at a competitive price, it’s only a matter of time until the PS3 surpasses the Xbox 360.

Certainly there are still too many variables, too many years, and too many unannounced games that will shape the remaining years of this generation, but it’s still fun to play analyst. So pretend for a few minutes that you’re Wedbush Morgan’s Michael Pachter or EEDAR’s Jesse Divnich. I want to know which console you think will end up grabbing the silver medal this console generation. Do you think it’ll be Microsoft’s Xbox 360 or Sony’s PlayStation 3? Pick a side and state your case (please!).

On a side note, it feels liberating to be able to throw around the terms Sony Defense Force and Xbot again.





  • Shockwave562

    first of all I would just like to say YES!!! the Broncos are 6-0. I think I'm going to start calling them the second half heros.

    now on topic. I think that Sony has corrected a lot of the errors they made early on this console generation. I think it is very likely they could catch up to Xbox in the next year or so. Right now it's hard to tell because the Slim was just released which will definitely boost sales but I'll be interested in sales figures come the beginning of the year when the excitement settles down. the xbox does have quite a lead and is still selling a lot of consoles each month as well.

    I don't want any losers this generation. This may be the first generation I didn't want the wii to succeed but I've accepted that innovation is usually always a good thing in any industry. as for Sony vs. Xbox. I'm glad to see a generation where Sony isn't dominating everyone for once. I like the free market.

    I also think the PS3 is a superb value for the money. I also think the Xbox is a great value as well. If I knew someone who owned one or the other I would tell them to invest in the other console.

  • Smartguy

    I agree. I think MS is hitting market saturation on their product. Sony has tremendous upside with Bluray discs becoming cheaper and going on sale all the time now. Alot more gamers will be willing to take the bluray plunge and will opt to buy a PS3 to get into the market. Very similar to how the DVD market exploded.

  • Shockwave562

    I wonder what the future is for Bluray. I have a feeling it will last only as long as the PS3 but that's definitely a bold prediction. 10 years is a long time for a media type though

  • Empyu

    I've been watching the competition between Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo for a while now (who hasn't) and I've come to the conclusion that it just doesn't matter.

    It seems that the only reason any company would want to sell more units is for bragging rights. It's as though they think they can brag that they've sold more, and bragging about it will make people want to buy more. It just doesn't seem to work that way. Not one person I know has bought a console based on how many units have been sold.

    Sony and Microsoft have proven themselves to be business savvy enough to be able to maintain quality gaming networks regardless of what place they're in. Also, the amount of consoles hasn't had an effect on the quality of games for those consoles. It has to count for something that in spite of the fact that Nintendo is number one, it still has the lowest attach rates.

    The only reason place matters is because some people just want to point at numbers and go "Nyah Nyah!"

  • http://www.gamerswishlist.com/home Nightshade386

    I think Sony hit the sweet spot for a lot of fence sitters with their new price point (myself included), and I think they will continue to do well through the holiday this year. I'll probably pick up a PS3 right after the holiday when all the giftcards come in. After the holiday I wouldn't be surprised to see both the 360 and PS3 have even sales going forward. Both systems have good selling points and good games.

  • Shockwave562

    @ empyu. well selling consoles means more games sold imo. it means more exclusives and more third parties interested in making games for your console. I don't think MS or Sony is bugged by being beat out by Nintendo but I do think neither of them wants to be left in last place.

    I'm glad Sony has been humbled. even though they've dominated the market for over 10 years and sold millions upon millions of PS2s and PSXs it didn't buy Sony any loyalty this generation. now that they've humbled themselves with a price drop and some good upcoming exclusives I think they have room to catch up now

  • Empyu

    @Shockwave562

    You say that, but look at how many exclusives Sony released this year even though they're in 3rd place. There are plenty of developers who are willing to make games for the PS3.

    Regardless of console sales, Sony and Microsoft have millions of units out there. The competition between them has benefited gamers all throughout this generation. The biggest threat to either company is themselves. One console breaking patch and people come out of the woodwork to bash on them and it leads to negative press and bad publicity. And that's just one way they can screw themselves over. I'm sure there are plenty more.

  • Shockwave562

    @empyu. in a way I agree. that's why this year they are closer than ever to catching up to 360. this has been one of their best years (if not best) to date and they should have a stellar 2010. far better than the console release and few years with late 3rd party releases and lackluster exclusives.

    I think not being in third place does matter. otherwise you wouldn't have Sony and MS talking about it all the time. I am glad Sony has turned things around though. I'm also glad MS had turned around a lot of the bad press from their mistakes including RROD.

  • Hrolf

    Sony will easily take 2nd by this time next year I predict. They have a solid history of great games.

    Xbox will be doing ok for themselves, but all the money they spent fixing their stupid RROD and the tarnished name from that will ensure 3rd place.

    I will hopefully help sony win 2nd place with a purchase early 2010.

  • Empyu

    @Shockwave562

    But that's my point exactly. Are they talking about it or just bragging? What does it do for the company when they release these charts showing active XBox and PSN accounts? Most casual gamers don't even bother with that information.

    Isn't there a point where a company has sold so many consoles that it doesn't matter what place they're in? Even if people were to suddenly stop buying consoles, the industry will still survive as long as it sells games – and that's where it matters.

    Weird… what could've easily been a Sony vs MS thread turned into a "numbers matter" vs "no they don't" thread.

    @Hrolf

    I wouldn't say Microsoft's name is tarnished so much. What they're going through seems normal for them. They tend to reach a little too far, learn a bunch of expensive lessons, then release a product based on those lessons. That's how we ended up with the Zune HD, and Windows 7. Because of this, I'm pretty sure their next console will be awesome, but it'll be too late for a lot of people.

  • http://twitter.com/Sandrock323 Sandrock323

    360 will get second place. Superior GPU and easy to program make it better for third party development. Also, am I missing something? The only exclusives I can think of for the PS3 next year is Heavy Rain and God of War 3. 360 has Fable 3 and Halo Reach, so I don't think exclusives will be a huge deal next year. Plus, the SDF said the same thing about this year and it didn't pan out to well for them. The PS3 price drop seems to be the only thing working for Sony right now. (or it is a cumulative effort where the price drop only works because the PS3 actually has games behind it now.)

  • Hrolf

    lol except the zune is still a P.O.S., and windows 7 still sucks like vista. If they HAD learned from their mistakes, they would have recalled every single xbox that was defective and made them better within the 1st 6 months of it happening.

  • Empyu

    @Hrolf

    I haven't actually used the Zune HD or Win7, but I've only heard good things about them. I was supposed to get the free Win7 upgrade with my new computer, but it hasn't arrived yet. I thought they were shipping it on Oct 12… but it might've been the 20th. I'll have to check.

    Recalling defective 360's would've been good publicity for Microsoft. The only problem is they didn't really know what the problem was until way past the 6 month mark. It would've lead to a hell of a lot less disappointment down the line, and probably wouldn't have cost them as much as their current warranty.

  • Hrolf

    Im no fan of Itunes, or any of their products other then the Mac I use, but I have never like the Zune either. got me a refurbished Sansdisk 4 gig that works fine for me. As far as windows 7 goes, it may be a better OS then Vista was, but it still gets more viruses then a mac, which is really the only reason I have my Mac. though I love the Safari browser.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Empyu A few things for you:

    - Selling more consoles always matters, especially if you're a shareholder of Microsoft or Sony.

    - Getting the Zune to market cost Microsoft a ton of money — same with launching the Xbox. Those are expensive lessons to learn.

  • SlickyFats

    @Empyu

    Windows 7 is October 22

  • SlickyFats

    As far as consoles taking a "place" it makes no difference to me personally. As a member of the PDF PS3 is number 1 in my heart (and my entertainment center). I am just glad everything is selling well across the board.

  • SlickyFats

    Anyone played Borderlands yet? I was renting movies and I saw it there for rent so I picked it up. I actually don't know anything about it, but I have heard it mentioned on here lately so I figured what the heck.

  • SlickyFats

    I think I'll just continue to talk amongst myself here. lol

  • SlickyFats

    @Hrolf

    Windows 7 is super nice compared to Vista. Vista took sucking back to the levels of Windows ME. The flashy new interface was marred by the uncountable bugs. I am currently using Window 7 and I have yet to encounter any major problems. I have been running it for I guess nearly a year (whenever the Beta was first released). Now I am running RC1.

  • Hrolf

    I imagine borderlands to be kinda like fallout, but not as deep. it looks to be either alot of fun, or empty save for multiplayer

  • Nightshade386

    For anyone who's interested, we count down the top 10 FPS's of all time IHO.

    http://www.gamerswishlist.com/news/251-Weekly-Top

  • SlickyFats

    @Hrolf

    Dang I just read your other post. Windows only gets more viruses because no one wants to take the time to make viruses for such a small install base like Mac. Recently I read a hacker was able to get into Macs much easier than Windows. The fact is the bigger the company the more people there are going after it. Just because you say Windows gets more viruses doesn't mean Macs are better, but if it suits your purposes then more power to you.

  • Empyu

    @SlickyFats

    Thanks!

    I haven't played Borderlands yet. I just recenly finished Uncharted2 and now I'm working my way through Brutal Legend. Am I the only one who likes the RTS part of the game?

    @Ray

    I'm sure there's going to be some people out there that have a tangible need for Sony or Microsoft to sell a lot of consoles. But how many of those people account for the percentage of gamers? I'm looking at this from the perspective of the guy in the store looking to buy a console because there are more of those people than there are stockholders.

    Does it really matter that Sony is in third place when they've still sold about 25 million consoles? You can buy CoD4 for any platform and have no shortage of people to play with online. If you don't go online, then the amount of units sold matters even less.

    The only way it matters is if you have a financial or emotional investment in how well Sony or Microsoft do. If it's financial, then that's understandable but not representative of the larger part of the community. If it's emotional, then it's irrational.

  • tokz_21

    I believe that the PS3 should be able to beat the 360 from here on out. I don't see it overtaking the 360 by the time the new xbox comes out but it's going to be interesting. A lot of my non-gamer friends have been asking me which would be better a 360 or PS3 and right now i suggest the PS3 because of the blu-ray/dvd playback, the free wi-fi adapter and free online game play service.

    Sony saves you more money especially when it comes to the wireless adapter that is still $99.99 and a xbl gold being an addl. $50.00 just so you can play online multiplayer games.

    For my non-gamer friends that want a next gen console the PS3 is a way to go.

  • Hrolf

    Well, viruses killed my pc, then less then 3 months later killed my laptop. lost over 600 pics of my kids i cant get back, so M$ loses my money on ALL future computer purchases. I may miss out on some great games and have to settle for the 360 version, at least for the rest of this year and until I can get a PS3.

  • SlickyFats

    @Nightshade

    Really?!? Halo 2 made the list. That was the worst of the series.

  • http://www.gamerswishlist.com/news/251-Weekly-Top-Ten-Top-Ten-FPS-Games-of-All-TIme Nightshade386

    @Slickfats: I'm not gonna pretend to be a Halo guy. I'm not overall a big fan of the series. That being said, it did a lot of innovative things that are considered commonplace in shooters today.

  • http://www.gamerswishlist.com/news/251-Weekly-Top-Ten-Top-Ten-FPS-Games-of-All-TIme Nightshade386

    @Slickyfats: I'm not a big fan of the Halo series in general. but Halo 2 did a lot of innovative things with multiplayer that are considered commonplace now. To exclude it would have been a mistake.

  • Nightshade386

    @Slickyfats: You can't deny that it did innovative things with multiplayer that are considered commonplace now.

  • jpkmets

    anyway, I think it's time for some real next generation shit. I want to play virtual reality style, and get a chick like Ahnold's friend has in the 6th Day. Where is the technology we really need?

  • Hrolf

    lol, like the sword glitch that made me so mad I stopped playing Halo 2 online at all..ahhh memories…

    I miss the 16 player matches with 4 X-boxes and 4 tv's.

  • Shockwave562

    @ slicky

    did you say you got borderlands? I don't know if it seems right for me. it looks like another FPS with RPG elements to me.

  • Shockwave562

    @hrolf, I miss the 4 tvs in one place too. we tried to have a local halo match every weekend in high school

  • SlickyFats

    @Nightshade

    I honestly never played the online Multiplayer on Halo 2, Heck I only played Halo 3 online once. I thought it was kinda crappy. I just can't get into online multiplayer in the Halo games.

  • SlickyFats

    @Shockwave

    Yeah i rented Borderlands about an hour ago, but won't get to try it out until the weekend. I don't know much about it at all though. I always give everything a shot though.

  • Hrolf

    My friend worked for a comic shop, and they did weekly late night stuff for card players, D&D players etc. his boss let him start up a Halo party, we would bring our tv, and X-boxes, hook up to the tv and X-box they had there and play till 4 or 5 in the morning. it was only a group the boss knew so we brought our own soda and snacks and didnt have to worry about buying stuff there. man those were fun times..

  • http://www.gamerswishlist.com/home Nightshade386

    @Slickyfats: I liked the Firefight mode in ODST and Horde mode in Gears of War much more than traditional deathmatch or capture the flag type games. Personal preference. Ultimately while I prefer the campaign mode in most games, it's pretty much accepted at this point that most gamers play FPS's for the multiplayer anymore.

  • Shockwave562

    @nightshade

    I will agree that the multiplayer of Halo 2 was unmatched even though Halo 2 felt unfinished when you got in to the later levels. Still though, Halo is one of the very few games that I continually play multiplayer on. That and Goldeneye were really the only multiplayer matches I got in to for FPSs

  • http://www.gamerswishlist.com/home Nightshade386

    Off to pick up my copy of FIFA 10. Ole'!

  • Hrolf

    Borderlands is supposed to be a FPS/RPG style game. dunno, looks good, but seems kinda empty. the reviewer on g4 said the ending sucked too, but it cant be as bad an ending as Fallout 3's endings.

  • Shockwave562

    @slicky, please let me know how you like the story/sp mode. I fear this is a game for mp lovers.

    To be honest up until about a week or 2 ago I thought the game was a Team Fortress ripoff. I thought it as mp only. lol

  • SlickyFats

    @Empyu

    I have only played the Demo of Brutal Legend, I have been waiting for a rental copy to show up, but I hope i like it. the RTS part seems like it will be odd. It is odd that the demo didn't show any part of that though.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Hrolf I don't think Borderlands is nearly the RPG that Fallout is — more emphasis on action and less on role-playing. I think it's really awesome.

    @Empyu The only reason (I can think of this second) a gamer would care about which company sold more consoles is multiplayer. Gamers that are all about multiplayer want the deepest pool to swim in.

    @jpkmets One day, my friend. It'll happen.

  • Shockwave562

    @hrolf, I heard the whole story wasn't too much to brag about on other reviews. this does tend to happen on FPS.

    I can't think of how Fallout 3 should have ended differently though. I thought the only bummer was that it ended the game before they released the DLC to correct that mistake

  • Hrolf

    I wanted to see more of an end game closure, not the still pictures and voiceover that happened. I know the ending of Fallout 3 wasnt as important as the story, and how you chose to progress..Is it wrong i just finished all my achievements on the game a few nights ago, and i am STILL playing this game..I cant get away from it.

  • SlickyFats

    I stopped playing Fallout 3 for some time. It happened right when PS released the patch for trophies after I was already 65+ hours into the game and it advised me I'd need to start over to get any trophies. I started a new game and it was so fresh on my mind from the first time thru I just got bored. Now many months later its fun again. 45+ hours in and about to go to Rivet City and talk to the Doctor about my Dad, just been doing side quests and on level 20.

  • SlickyFats

    comment #1999

  • SlickyFats

    COMMENT #2000

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    Ha! 2,000 comments in less than nine days. Thanks so much guys!!!

  • SlickyFats

    @Rpad

    Wow has it only been 9 days? It feels like home already. I hope you get to keep it up.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @SlickyFats I'm happy that it feels like home. That's the vibe I'm going for. Hopefully more people will visit and stay in our home. Ha!

    I'm going to give it a shot. Let's see where it all takes us!

  • bsukenyan

    Here's to another 2,000 in much less than 9 days!! personally this site has gotten me away from most of the other sites i used to visit. now its, for the most part, just this one and gamekicker.

  • Hrolf

    Yea i visit the feed once a day now and notice the normal posters are all here it seems. and of course, nothing but bashing the other system on that site too. im really surprised this coffee talk hasn't resorted to warring about which system is better, but im not complaining. i get so sick of that garbage.

    someone needs to let us know about Fallout New Vegas soon..

  • Arguello

    The karate Kid Picture instantly makes me think of this video.
    http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/9/Street-Fi

  • http://twitter.com/Sandrock323 Sandrock323

    I'm surprised RROD hasn't posted yet. He must be real busy if he is missing an article this inviting.

  • Arguello

    And a little of topic how easy is it to upgrade the Hard drive in a PS3 I thought 80gb would be enough, but it seems that is not the case.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Arguello The process is super easy. What are you having problems with?

  • Hrolf

    theres a few missing out on easy shots today

  • http://twitter.com/Sandrock323 Sandrock323

    @Arguello

    playstation.com has step by step diagrams on how to change your HDD.

  • Shockwave562

    @Arguello 1 hatch and 1 screw. I think my mom could probably figure it out. try to snag a 500 gig. you'll get it for less than 100 bucks on newegg

  • Arguello

    @rpad

    Not a problem really, just I have a 20gb HDD on my Xbox and I've played like a 5 times more games on it than I have my PS3 and it only half full. My Ps3 on the other hand has like is an 80gb and now I only have like 17gb with like one demo and no music. I tried deleting some game data and things like that but it only freed up the space I have now. So I figure its about time for an upgrade.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Hrolf I confess that I felt guilty writing this morning's 'Talk. I didn't like the flame potential, but I honestly wanted to know how everyone thinks this is going to pan out.

    @Arguello Yeah, 320GB and 500GB drives are relatively inexpensive. The upgrade is worth it, especially if you use your PS3 for lots of multimedia.

  • Arguello

    Thanks for the tips guys.

    @rpad

    I'm digging the new site man.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Arguello I'm digging that you're here!

  • http://twitter.com/Sandrock323 Sandrock323

    @R-Pad

    Maybe it is a little to late to be fighting over second place. 2012 is the projected start of the next gen, so fighting over places now seems silly. We have only one more year (2011) till Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo start spouting off about their next products. I know the stock holders and investors are interested, but I don't think much will change on the consumer level at this point.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Sandrock323 A lot of analysts believe that this generation will be extended due to the global economy. So perhaps this gen is longer than you think? *shrug*

  • Smartguy

    Isn't 500gb the max you can do right now? I know I can't put more than a 500gb hdd in my MacBook because any size larger is too thick and won't sit in the cradle. Isn't the PS3 under the same limitation?

  • Arguello

    So no one picked up SvR2010? I pre-ordered it but Blockbuster is lame and doesn't get games until Friday.

  • rbee90

    even if i own the 3 systems, i'm still rooting for sony to win the console war for second place. SECOND PLACE SECOND PLACE! (lol semi-pro)…im rooting for sony because of their games, i dont like multiplayer that much, so i dont use my live gold account that much. and most single player games sony publishes or develops are masterpieces (i.e uncharted 2, mgs4, DEMON'S SOULS!!((coop for demon's souls is fun)) etc.) the only masterpieces the 360 have is halo, shadow complex, gears of war, sam and max, and UNO!!! those are fun games! but its quality over quantity for me..AND I JUST WANT MOAR GAMES! MOAR!!!! FEED MEEEEE!!!!

  • rbee90

    @rpad

    i love the header, lol…

  • Shockwave562

    @ smartguy

    There actually was a 1TB and 750GIG 2.5" WD HDD released within the last couple months but it is too thick to fit in most laptops including Macbooks and PS3

  • SlickyFats

    I went with the 320Gb 7200rpm in my PS3 and now I wish I had gotten the 500Gb. I only have 34Gb left.

  • Smartguy

    @rbee

    I didn't care for Shadow Complex. The damn aiming "into" the screen was clunky for me. I just didn't like the damn controls. I had such high hopes.

  • SlickyFats

    @rbee90

    I was thinking about buying Demon's Soul ( i tried to rent it but neither Hasting's or Blockbuster is getting rentals). But you mentioned co-op. Is it 1 console 2 controller co-op or is it online only?

  • Shockwave562

    @smartguy – at times the aiming was awkward but the auto-aim did wonders if you didn't try to force him to aim a certain direction. I thought that Shadow complex is one of the best games I played this year. definitely my arcade GOTY

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Arguello Lemme know what you think of the Mickie and HBK storylines!

    @rbee90 Glad you liked it! William Zabka ftw!!!

  • SlickyFats

    @Shockwave

    I played the Shodaow Complex demo and I thought that it felt like a 2-d Uncharted. But thats just me. I liked it a lot, just didn't know if it was worth buying considering my HDD is almost maxed out. 3Gb left on the 360 and therer doesn't seem to be anything I can delete

  • rbee90

    @smartguy

    well, it was still entertaining for me, although i do have to admit, the controls were clunky.

    @slickyfats

    demon's souls is just awesome, pure awesome. its brutally hard, but its a good hard, it keeps you going for more, it makes you innovative and creative. it makes you daydream at class or work on what strategies you have to use to defeat a boss, im just completely hooked to it, its like a one night stand but better! it features online coop, and i experienced no lag whatsoever. and now im confused on what my RPG of the year would be, this, or dragon age.

  • Smartguy

    @slicky

    The game requires an online connection. You don't choose a multiplayer game. If you want, you can bring someone into your game. Otherwise it's all solo.

  • SlickyFats

    That sucks I am the only one of my friends I know with a PS3 so online mutliplayer is a big detractor.

  • Smartguy

    @slicky

    If you like single player the game is fine. I have yet to play with anyone else. It is your choice whether or not you want to. The game is always in an online "phased" world.

  • Shockwave562

    @slicky,

    As I mentioned yesterday I think that whole Shadow Complex/Uncharted thing came about because the character model looks a lot like the Uncharted guy and of course they are voiced by the same actor.

    That aside the two games are not comparable. I would compare it to Metroid of old more than anything. seriously if it's not about the money you should play through the whole game. it is amazing fun except for some clunky controls at times that smartguy mentioned

  • RRODisHere

    Sorry I'm late to the party guys, Uncharted 2 has it's hook deep in me. As far as 2nd place, the PS3 can't be ignored at $299. That's practically a steal. Uncharted 2 is the game of this generation and has raised the bar so high and must be played. I don't know how Naughty Dog can top with Uncharted 3. Also, this gen will last longer than you people think. Imagine M$ trying to get a jump on the next gen early in this economic climate with the price of a brand new next gen system. All companies are forced to hold off next gen plans for a long time. I think Nintendo can release a Wii HD for cheap though.

  • RRODisHere

    @Shockwave

    Congrats on Denver going 6-0. I knew they would beat the Chargers. LT is done and needs to be put out to pasture. Eddie Royal was a return beast last night.

  • SlickyFats

    @Shockwave

    I didn't know that about the voices. It felt like Uncharted as far a the regular guy reluctant hero thing and the massive amount of climbing I did. I still have no clue what the guy in the power armor at the beginning of the demo had to do with anything.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @RRODisHere I agree with your assessment of the length of this console generation. The economy has forced all three companies, particularly Microsoft and Sony, to rethink their strategies and extend the lifespan of their current machines as long as possible.

  • Shockwave562

    @ RROD, I definitely agree with that. I would think Sony is able to catch up or pass Xbox in 2010. Uncharted 2 is probably one of the best games I've played on either the 360 or the PS3. I love when we get to this sweet spot in a console generation where the developers have really figured out how to use the most out of the consoles.

    Thanks. big game last night and an exciting one for MNF. I really think this team makes amazing adjustments during halftime. LT is still worthless and Rivers gets way too emotional once you knock him off his game like we did in the second half. it's amazing how fast he falls apart after a couple of fumbles and some poor passes. not to mention 5 sacks. I'm glad we kept the pressure on him

  • Shockwave562

    @slicky,

    I should say I didn't play the demo but you know how some games give you all the powerups in a game and then take them all away? that's what happened there basically. did you get to go in the complex or did it halt with that guy on the demo?

  • rbee90

    uncharted 2 was awesome, but my ps3 is too busy with demon's souls…

    @RROD you should pick it up. it is bloody worth the 60 bucks

    @rpad have you played demon's souls?

  • Shockwave562

    @RPAD, well thankfullly Sony prepared for that already in a way. they've always said the PS3 was a 10 year system so they definitely got that right.

    Although, if they do it like they did the PS2 then maybe they'd like to get 4 out before the end of the 10 years. Sony doesn't like to abandon products which I appreciate.

  • Shockwave562

    I think we'll see a new console generation when we see some vast improvements. keep an eye out for games like Crysis 2. if you get most games on PC looking like that and maybe some looking better then you can expect a new system on the horizon.

  • rbee90

    @shockwave

    isnt crysis 2 going to consoles as well?

  • SlickyFats

    @Shockwave

    I guess I went into the complex to save some girl. Climbed through some caverns and air ducts, shot some people and turrets and found some grenades and fought some big ass monster and the demo ended. The guy in the power suit part last through 3 guys I shot and a helicopter and then cut to the normal looking guy and girl.

  • RRODisHere

    @rbee90

    I want Demon's Souls but nobody ever has it in stock when I try to go and buy it.

  • Shockwave562

    @ rbee90 – Sorry, I meant to say Crysis. after seeing that game I can only imagine the console versions for 2 won't be quite as crisp. maybe I'm wrong.

    @slick, ok good so you got a shot at it. I think the game really becomes cool when it opens up but the beginning part was just to get you aquatinted with all the awesome upgrades you will eventually get. it also adds a tad bit to the story which is ok I guess.

  • rbee90

    @RROD

    you can order it online and have it by tomorrow, go to gamestop's website, amazon, or newegg.

    @shockwave

    crysis is amazing in terms of graphics, but the gameplay and story for me was too mediocre and generic.had my hopes up for that game. but the graphics kicked so much ass. i was just drooling

  • RRODisHere

    @Shockwave

    Sony definitely planned for a 10 year cycle with the PS3 just like the PS2. They thought ahead and that's why they went with the Cell and Blu-Ray and that will definitely get them through 10 years. M$'s weaker hardware and DVD9 storage will hinder them but they're banking everything on Natal to carry them. I personally think that Sony and M$ will fail at the motion control business. That genre belongs to Nintendo. I'm not buying the Sony Sphere. I also think that the 3rd party support will start to shift to the PS3 for 2 reasons. #1, because at $299 their will be more PS3's in homes and it can't be ignored anymore. #2, many 3rd party devs such as id software and Rockstar has said that they will have trouble putting their next games on one Xbox DVD. Open world games like GTA can't be broken up and put on multiple discs. If so, you would have to switch disc every time you travel from one Island to the next and that would make the game unplayable. Having to fit GTA4 on one DVD9 is clearly the reason that GTA4 was missing a lot of what made GTA great.

  • RRODisHere

    @rbee90

    Is it really as hard as everyone says it is. I'm kinda of shocked that a really hard game is getting this kind of praise.

  • RRODisHere

    #100

  • Shockwave562

    @RROD, I try to imagine sometimes what would have happened if MS had stuck the HD-DVD inside the 360 in the first place. even though Bluray has more storage the format war might have been a little closer and could have slid in the direction of dvd only because of the large install base of 360s.

    I will agree some 3rd party games might become exclusives for that reason. I know that if GTA5 were coming out and I could buy it on 3 discs on Xbox or 1 disc on PS3 I'd definitely go PS3. especially since it is such a great single player experience.

    I don't know what plans MS has for the next Xbox but I think they do need to consider a higher capacity storage than DVD9

  • RRODisHere

    @Shockwave

    In M$'s defense, Blu-Ray or HD-DVD was not ready when M$ was making the Xbox 360(nor was the Xbox for that matter). They were more concerned with beating Sony to the punch and have paid the first price for that if you know what I mean and now they will pay a second price for that with the storage barrier. That forced Sony to release the PS3 before they wanted to, hence the short list of launch titles and lackluster launch PSN service.

  • rbee90

    @RROD

    its brutaly hard…but its the good kinda hard,not the suckish kinda hard…go get it and add me up in psn arbsnotdead

  • Smartguy

    @RROD

    Yeah, it is hard…but the hard part is that the game is frustrating at times because of dumb mistakes by you. I got killed by some ET looking mob the other day and just turned the machine off. I had been running around the level for 45 minutes and had to redo all of it. Gratifying when you beat something though. Just a hardcore game. Death has a serious consequence in this game.

  • Shockwave562

    @RROD,

    Agreed. at the end of the day the console that is released more recently is going to have a lot more technology behind it. being first doesn't make you the best.

    Same thing happened last gen, coming in late to the game MS had the ability to beat out the PS3 in specs but it certainly didn't help the Xbox compete with PS2 sales.

  • RRODisHere

    @rbee90 & Smartguy

    Cool. Looking forward to it. As long as it's not cheap hard like Ninja Gaiden where enemies fly in off camera and you never saw it coming.

  • Shockwave562

    @smartguy. to my understanding the game gets harder each time you die correct? I don't know if I'd like that. I don't want to call myself a P##@& gamer or anything because on a good game I do like to play through it on hard after a normal run.

    I just hate it when I get stuck on one part and die 35 times trying to pass one thing. that's the kind of hard I hate in a video game. I get frustrated really easily with games like that.

    Also, I don't like making 15 to 20 minutes progress, or even an hour for that matter all to have it come to a close with dying. I hate having to start waaaay back when I die

  • Smartguy

    @RROD

    Not a cheap hard no. You cause your deaths really. Just think of it as not paying attention to the environment, pulling mobs you shouldn't or just getting owned one on one.

  • Smartguy

    @shockwave

    Yeah, it supposedly gets harder based on world orientation. I haven't gotten that deep into it for that to be an issue. Either that or I am a balanced orientation. If you want a cheap way to cheese out of the dying penalty….at the instant the killing blow hits, quit the game. That way it will load you back in the save right before you died. The game saves all the time.

    To recap the cheese: killing blow –> PS button –> QUIT GAME option. (fast)

  • Shockwave562

    haha, well if it saves frequently I wouldn't mind so much. I like a challenge as much as the next guy but I have too much ADD to keep playing the same part over and over if I can't pass it. sometimes I find it helps just to shut it off and come back the next day though.

  • Nightshade386

    Sorry about the triple post earlier. I was having some PC issues I believe….

  • N8R

    @ off topic rant

    The worst thing about having kids is having to put up with "The Wiggles".

    I'm down for how they get kids interested in music and all… but MY GOD! Someone is going to pay for all the times I've had "Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, cockle-doodle-doo" stuck in my head.

    Look out Australia.

  • Shockwave562

    haha N8R, while I don't know the wiggles I'm picturing something like the Kangaroo song from the Adam Sandler movie Big Daddy

  • N8R

    @ Shockwave

    The Wiggles put the Kangaroo song to shame.

  • Shockwave562

    @N8R, haha, I don't want to know

    in the meantime you can enjoy this telletubbie fail courtesy of failblog

    http://failblog.org/2009/07/14/teletubbies-fail/

    @RROD – I know you don't always like IGN but they really liked Ratchet and Clank. full article here

    http://ps3.ign.com/articles/103/1036656p1.html

  • RRODisHere

    @Shockwave

    Yeah, I saw that. It's not that I don't like IGN, it's just that they give every game with a little hype behind it a 9 or above.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @RRODisHere And their rating scale is stupid.

  • Smartguy

    @shockwave

    no, you quit before it saves so you can just load back in real quick before you got killed and you don't have to run back.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    I like to see Sony makes a profit and not to come up short. They work hard to have blu-ray technology, and they work hard to make a slim with a price range to match the other console. There games are by far the best that I have seen and play. I'm so into sony that I even got the pspgo to support them hehe…. I am waiting for a psp that can play ps2 games…>!!! Than Sony will pull ahead for sure!

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    Microsoft is just a big giant company that needs to be taken down. I mean all they got is money! They bought out all of exclusive games that was made for Sony ps2 only now being made for the 360..Charging people for online games and now they are planing on bumping up the price….IDK Even if Microsoft takes 3rd they wont be hurt by it… hehe They make soo much money on Halo(backbone360)….But than again I still don't see whats soo good about that game:/ I play Halo1,Halo3 and some odst over at my friends house….He looks like a zombie playing that game O.O Maybe I'm just not into Halo games….I like deep story line and a good end like uncharted, ratchet and clank, killzone…..I just know one thing Microsoft needs to make better hardware, and redesign there 360. I would never waist my money on a console and worry about or if I should put a fan next to it.

  • Thundercracker

    where is n8r?

    oh wait, busy making another music video

    im kidding of course, but if i wasnt, it might look like this….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKO9h-gG4Qg

  • Thundercracker

    @raymond

    watch that god damn video

  • N8R

    @ Snipe

    What kind of computer are you using to type on here… out of curiosity?

  • Thundercracker

    @everyone

    i dont mean to spam, but holy crap, this is magic

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKO9h-gG4Qg

  • Arguello

    @snipe2kill

    Xbox has some great games as well and don't forget, Bioshock was at one time only on the 360. To fully enjoy gaming you need to have both, maybe even all three. I play both my 360 and PS3. And my Wii is there in case I ever want to do something that feels even remotely close to exercise. I do understand that Microsoft does get a little money hungry, it doesn't mean that they pass over industry changing games to come out with another Halo. Yeah, they will ride halo until the wheels fall off. But its because MC is an icon now, I mean think about it. If you had to paint the Last Supper using video game icons, He would probably be in it.

  • Thundercracker

    lol@fasten your beltseats

  • Arguello

    @thundercracker

    That's internet gold right there

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKO9h-gG4Qg N8R

    @ Thundercracker

    5… 4… 3… 1

  • Thundercracker

    ok, back to gaming related topics

    i got legends of wrestlemania yesterday

    mind you i paid 20 bucks

    i love that game, the original entrance music alone was worth the price of admission. I suggest anyone who can get that game for 20 bucks go pick it up

    although ive had hulk hogans entrance music stuck in my head for a solid 18 hours….

    another awesome thing about it is that you can upload your own music to use as entrance themes.

    ok, so i took the undertaker, gave him the same entrance, with no stadium lighting and lots of smoke…and of course changed the music to the sanford and son theme

    im priceless

  • Thundercracker

    its better to have "i am a real american" stuck in my head than the fresh beat band

    damn you nick jr!!!!!

  • Arguello

    I think every time Air Force One lands it need to play that song as loud as possible.

  • Thundercracker

    a special thanks to the person who posted "the real karate kid " video up there

    although i posted it in my fantasy football league and now the link doesnt work

  • Arguello

    ::Pat Morita looks down from above, and nods in approval::

    I just checked the link should be working fine.

  • Thundercracker

    must have put it down wrong, thanks

  • Thundercracker

    i was genuinely upset upon learning of the death of pat morita

  • Thundercracker

    ok, im talking to myself here, ill see you guys tomorrow

  • Arguello

    I don't no of a single person who didn't shed at least one tear for the Great man known as Mr. Morita.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    LOL you aren't talking to yourself Thundercracker… I'm just not replying hehe

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    I7 chip, trichannel memory, dual internet, 4870 ati video card 1gig, 80gig solid state hard drive, 1t seta hard drive, running windows 7 64bit …. Why N8R?

  • N8R

    @ Snipe

    I just find it ironic that you're using Windows to say MS needs to be put down.

    They are a huge money making corporation… and you support them as well.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    There no need for a 360 when I can dl those games on pc for free. Now if I wasn't able to play all those games for free than I would think of buying the system.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    Yes but if you remember they screw them up with VISTA windows 7 should be free. Mine is free because i'm a server admin for my company!

  • N8R

    You're still shooting yourself in the foot by supporting the install base. If they did indeed get "put down"… then what would you do?

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    I support anything that is Legit and is done correctly…. Windows7 is a big improvement but benchmark wise it still side by side with windowsxp, Vista was a waist of money for anyone that bought it. Microsoft new about the hardware issue before xbox came out. Sony I would have to admit they make the best electronics and last. That why I bought a ps3 for 600 back than and still works

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    Being that microsoft have a big head they are bring product that are no good reaping people off. If you pay 200 dollar for a vista you are being reap off…. If you have to turn your xbox360 in 1-2 x you are being reap off. Than they bring out the elite and still have the issue that just show to me they don't care too much… You can't support a product that isnt done correctly

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    Let just say you go to a restaurant that you love every week. The restaurant are making big time money so they start going cheap on the quality of there food. Would you still go back there?

  • Smartguy

    you support legit but you just said you pirate games. a bit of a contradiction unless i am misunderstanding you.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    I can tell you that my ps3 will last me for 10years just like my ps1, and ps2, and my very first psp that still go strong. Good solid product is what everyone should want to support. Windows 7 is solid and I support that. There Microsoft office I support that but not internet explorer I don't support that.

  • N8R

    I can't argue with your logic. I'm just saying that MS is like that across the board in ALL their products.

    All I said is that I find it ironic that you're using an MS product to bash them at the same time.

    Windows7… let's wait and see the inevitable flaws. XP is just their best to date. It has it's flaws too.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    I like to play 360 games a lot of them are good but I just wont support the console itself. If I have a lot of money where I can buy all the games I want than yes I wouldn't have to. How many people dl music online for free? I knows lots…. ADOBE photoshope is what expensive I wish I can support it but I can not so I dl it for free :) But I support by telling people how good it is…

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    xp flaws is that is crash alot…I support the developer that makes the good games for 360 but I don't see myself support the 360 itself… If they come out with a new console I will buy one if there isnt a major flaw on it. I was on windows7 beta for 2years my system never crash…

  • N8R

    … and the viruses… and the malware.

    Windows7 hasn't succumbed to that because MS is fairly careful who they let the beta test out to for one, and 2, it's closely monitored… for now. The security flaws will become abundant once it hits the masses. Until they abandon the registry system… it's inevitable.

    Photoshop is only so expensive because it's pirated to a heavy degree. If no-one pirated it (fat chance of that happening) it would come down in price. Adobe has said that numerous times.

  • N8R

    Also… you didn't say they need to drop out of the console race… you said put down. As a whole, that means Windows and all their games as well.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    I highly doubt that even the first adobe photo shop was expensive. Windows7 was on all bittorent sites. Infact Microsoft themselves allow that. Betta tester wasn't the one that was spreading the love about windows 7. It was everyone that dl windows 7 at many torrent sites. Once google made an OS for the mini labtop and once they make an OS I might be incline to jump onto it.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Thundercracker Ha! That video is pretty awesome, but not as awesome as, "When it comes crashing down and it hurts inside!!!"

    @Xsnipe2killg4feedX I'm looking forward to Chrome OS. When I was at G4, a lot of the workflow was through Google Docs, I work on this site mostly in Chrome, my numerous Gmail accounts are invaluable, and I love Google Calendar.

    @Everyone Hmmm, I just woke up from a nap (thanks for wrecking my productivity Vicodin!) and the Angels are going on a run. Maybe I should go back to sleep….

  • N8R

    @ snipe

    See what I did there, I got you to go from bashing MS to praising it.

    What?

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @N8R Your Machiavellian machinations know no bounds.

  • rbee90

    @N8R and snipe

    god, i thot u guys are over that MS thing already

    @Rpad

    have you ever been to gamplay long beach? they import japanese games, and if you order it from them your shipping is free, and you ust have to pay the game's price, i ordered white knight chronicles earlier! and it will be o my hands this weekend!!!

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @rbee90 I have not. I've been to that import place on Sawtelle though.

  • N8R

    @ snipe

    After a heap of research, I found that Photoshop 1.0 (a Mac exclusive, not available for Windows until version 2.5) did indeed cost $999.99.

    Still, Adobe does claim that the price would go down if it weren't for the piracy. Whether or not that's true is a hypothetical scenario with only hypothetical reasons. i.e. It's not worth debating since there are no real facts.

    In all fairness, I never suggested what earlier versions of Photoshop cost though, I was just stating what Adobe claimed.

  • N8R

    @ rbee

    Sorry, dude flip-flops like John Kerry. I had to catch him going back on his stance because… I thought it was funny.

  • Smartguy

    So I hear God of War 3 will have DLC. Piss on those developers for that. Makes me not want to buy it. If they can't tell me the whole story for the sixty dollar retail, I don't think I will give them my money. Especially since they said the game will not have a MP component to it. If the DLC isn't something like the AA challenge maps, I'm gonna just borrow the game from someone.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Smartguy Dang you're angry tonight.

  • http://www.gamerswishlist.com Nightshade386

    Yankees win!!

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    Nightshade386 Indeed!!!

  • Smartguy

    @Ray

    Maybe I was. This morning I still stand by what I said though. If the game is supposed to be the conclusion to the story, I want everything to be in it at retail. I don't want to have to pay extra to do it.

  • http://www.gamerswishlist.com/ Nightshade386

    @Ray: Did you just go all Funaki on me? EEEEEEVVVVVVIIIIILLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    Wow you guys are still talking on coffee talk LOL Almost that it was just me and N8R in here.

  • Xsnipe2killg4feedX

    I only support quality hardware! And I don't think 360 is worth the price of admission….I price Microsoft on other things but not the 360…:)

    RPad I am so looking forward to the OS too :)

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Smartguy I understand your pov. That said, things are tougher from the development side. Budgets have gone way up, while game prices haven't.

    @Nightshade386 I will have you know that Funaki is the best announcer in SmackDown history!

  • Smartguy

    @Ray

    Then game developers should negotiate better terms with the console manufacturers. I understand development has gone up but you can't expect me to pay $60 for a game and then dish out close to $20 more on DLC just to get the full experience. Especially since the price of the consoles themselves are coming down. If I buy a game for the PS3 at full price and pay another $15-20 on DLC then I have just spent at a minimum 25% of the retail price of the console on one title. That is asking alot of the consumer.

    For comparisons sakes, the movie industry only charges me $9 to see a movie that costs between $80-100 million (average). They aren't trying to juice me on the backend with a $50 dollar dvd or something.

    I think game prices need to come down. The prices were justified when this generation debuted but the same engines keep getting licensed out and that in itself should make the dev cycles cheaper and shorter.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Smartguy Are dev cycles getting cheaper and shorter? I'm not sure about that.

    As for negotiating better terms with the "big three", that'll be tough. I'm for anything that gets developers more money and gives them more power, but I don't see any major changes on the way. The console makers and the large publishers wield too much power.

  • Smartguy

    @Ray

    I said it should make them cheaper and shorter. It's just plain logical. If you license the Unreal engine or id engine it shouldn't be nearly as labor intensive and costly as developing from the ground up. I don't think the developers are angels in this equation….they are the lesser of the evils though lol.

    Why shouldn't game prices come down as the generation goes by? I'm talking about new releases or maybe dropping the prices on titles in a shorter time period. It only takes one developer to push the issue and start a trend. Good example would be when 2k released 2K5 for $20. It was and is still the greatest football game ever released for a home console. Unfortunately instead of competing with product EA gave the NFLPA a truckload of money for an exclusive license. Still though, it showed that with an established engine, a developer was able to produce a game in a timely fashion and sell it cheap. The EA strong arm proved that.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Smartguy I think you're over simplifying engine licensing. I've seen too many developers spend as much time and money customizing a licensed engine as they would building one from the ground up. This is especially true for multiplatform development. It's no secret that a lot of devs had problems using the Unreal Engine on PS3.

    The 2K5 example — didn't the developers just use most of the code and art assets from its predecessor? I thought that was the case.

  • Smartguy

    @Ray

    Yeah, 2k5 did borrow alot from the predecessor games. Something Madden has done for at least 10 years and still charges $60 for every release. What's to make you think that Bungie didn't do that with Halo and Halo2? Clean up the engine a little bit? Yeah. Create alot of new stuff? No. I think most sequels are guilty of that.

    As far as developers who toil over customizing a licensed engine, hiring experienced guys who have worked with the engine before could help those costs. It couldn't hurt anyway. I just don't see why the costs of sequels are full price when most don't really offer any new innovation. Clippings of the first title with new music lol.

    I'm an accountant who has minored in economics (read nerd) so this kind of stuff isn't arguing to me, it's just good coffee talking material.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Smartguy Actually new art assets are created every year for Madden. The same goes for Halo and Halo 2. So for those examples, I think you're wrong.

    As for hiring "experienced help", that's pretty impossible within the first few years of a console's lifespan. I would say only now are programmers finding grooves for particular engines. If it were that easy, then every PS3 game would look as good as Uncharted 2 and MGS4.

  • Smartguy

    @Ray

    Not wrong. In madden, Aaron Brooks and Joe Horn are still on the posters lining the field in the Superdome. They haven't played with the Saints since before Katrina. Character models don't change either. So many Saints players had dreadlocks when they are actually bald. I'm talking the dreads that hang out of the jersey. EA is the biggest abuse of a license I have ever seen. 2K5 proves it. In Halo and its sequel the character models never changed. They shouldn't change for lead characters granted, but some diversity in the way enemies look would be nice. Floor textures as well as background textures were ported between titles. Not saying you can't add a new color palette but the costs to make the sequel were probably less considering the groundwork was done with the first title. Halo 2 just had more voicework.

    Experienced help would come from maybe hiring a consultant from the licensing company. Could be a good career field if some developers want to just intricately learn a particular engine and then evolve with it generation to generation.

    About the Unreal engine though….wasn't it built around a traditional processor and PC architecture as well as the 360 architecture? That would make sense why it doesn't run as well on the PS3.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    You're correct about Unreal Engine. Initially, it was much easier to work with on PC and Xbox 360.

    Again, I disagree with you on the Halo example. At the time, I saw work-in-progress art assets. I assure you that they were reall. New art assets are required for every game, even Madden.

    Are sequels easier to make than the original game? Sure, but generally there are other costs that raise budgets. In many cases, a sequel's budget is bigger than the original's.

  • Smartguy

    @ray

    But EA with what I would consider their flagship title shows me that the artwork might be for a menu or one team. I couldn't believe when I took a chance and bought last year's version that it had those players still in the stadium. For what it's worth, they could have just sold me an updated roster for 10 dollars and let me use an older copy of the game.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Smartguy A roster update would have been great…unless you're an EA shareholder. Ha!

  • Smartguy

    @Ray

    I do what I can…vote with my wallet. Unfortunately there is no shortage of people in this world who just rush out and buy the "new" madden.

  • http://rpad.tv raymond padilla

    @Smartguy Agreed. EA does what they do with Madden because they know it'll sell.